Dear crypto community and blockchain
buddies across the globe welcome back to Cryptonites the no BS blockchain
channel built with the community for the community and tonight we have another
really exciting guest nicholas gregory from commerce bloc pleasure to have you
Nick alright so we were talking about some really interesting story about your
father is that correct yes didn’t have the most normal upbringing my father was
a musician I guess he was famous for playing the saxophone solo for George
Michaels Careless Whisper he also did honky tonk women as well for the Rolling
Stones but I guess if I want to do a nice break I can always say my dad
played sax on CODIS kind of whispered by George Michael but that is so cool so
did you hear like so I’m never gonna dance again I remember being in the
nineties in LA and it was being played all the time and it was a very good
opener specially English accent it helped open a lot of doors and many
nightclubs etc that song was just absolutely legendary wasn’t it to dance
slow jams you know back in the day at the balls and everything have you ever
had a chance to dance on Careless Whisper no but you know if you invite if
you’re in college and you invite people back to your room and it was very useful
that’s a good tip right there awesome so obviously Nick you have been involved in
Bitcoin for a long time now you’re in New York at one point then you move back
to London can you tell us a little bit about your background obviously in the
UK I think most people know you and most of the the core devs that Bitcoin know
you but a little bit about yourself would be amazing yes I’m a technologist
so I graduated did software engineering and then I worked in the financial
system so I worked for various banks Merrill Lynch and in JP Morgan then in
2010 I found myself in New York through work and around 2012 I just got into
Bitcoin I knew about it maybe a year before and then in a place I was working
out a guy said talking about mining I thought isn’t that cool I can just sit
at home and make money now I’m fortunate 2012 those days were kind of gone but
you know I did discover Bitcoin in it quickly became a hobby and I was
fortunate to be living in New York when I was quite a good Bitcoin community and
some of the core devs were there so that it was able I was able to learn quite a
lot a slow pace kind of like a fast pace so I know some interesting people there
that you have chain code labs in New York you have some of the core devs in
New York so I was able to kind of like learn stuff and ended up you know kind
of working on on Bitcoin like building layers on top of it which is kind of
always been my speciality that is very very cool and as you probably
experienced so Bitcoin has lost seventy percent for times in the past ten years
but has ended up recovering what does that metric tell you if Bitcoin has been
surviving ten years is that a significant milestone or is it not
really something special – yeah I mean a lot of people think that that bitcoins
ten years old I think it’s got ten years of engineering and you know it’s been
battle tested for ten years in it and every year it’s in its it’s around it’s
kind of more in people’s minds new newer generations of people you know kind of
know about it and it’s a test of time and I think to be where it is now it’s
quite impressive if you’d have told me in 2012 where it would have been in 2016
I would have taken that to think that we hit you know even though we’re only four
thousand dollars I would have taken that you know in 2012 it I’d have taken five
hundred dollars back then so I think it’s done pretty well it’s quite amazing
because people used to compare Bitcoin with the tulip bubble or the dot-com
bubble but a decade of survival like you said and building up is quite an
achievement isn’t it yeah and people don’t realize how complex of the network
is I worked in banks we would have loved to have had a system with ten years to
have no essential Ino downtime that’s phenomenal yeah there’s no such
thing and to have such you know such high amounts of transactions going
through Bitcoin every you know every ten minutes and to have never really gone
down in ten years is unheard of I don’t you know I think it’s a real you know a
sign of the hard work that many people have put through whether that’s to
miners the core devs or people running nodes the people running exchanges it’s
it’s quite ya come a compliment to achieve that it’s amazing right and I
think recently Tom Lee likes to talk about how Bitcoin has surpassed
it’s PayPal in terms of annual transactions it’s a 1.3 trillion USD
last year alone beating PayPal is is that it once again another significant
milestone for you or yeah I mean transactions are kind of strange because
we don’t really know how many transactions we know that Bitcoin kind
of maxes out at about seven per second or but I think the fact that is used
yeah and it’s used quite a lot for a remittance there’s you know there’s an
active market for it it’s phenomenal I mean who’d have taken that and there’s
been so many attempts to do kind of like emoney before and you know Bitcoin for
whatever reason I think a lot of the cards fell in the right present places
it has been a success and is a success and it’s you know it’s kind of like a
mainstay in people’s mindsets I think there’s not many people who don’t know
about Bitcoin in the Western world or maybe in third world as well and you
know it’s it’s obviously not gonna go away anytime soon so definitely there’s
been a huge success story so far I really want to ask you a question since
you’ve been in a space for so long and you’re in New York work kind of all
happened in terms of the whole Satoshi Nakamoto thing this is a huge topic
these days we hear the term fake Toshi whether it’s a guy or a girl Satoshi is
female it’s a group of people obviously we don’t know for sure but do you feel
like that person it’s one person several people do you have a few names that
could be a part of it what is your overall take on this crazy phenomenon
that’s going on I mean I think it was a group of people I don’t think it’s such
a big deal who it was though I mean you know it and also we what bitcoin was ten
years ago isn’t what it is now it’s involved there’s some you know there’s
some very bright people working on under today and you know it’s it’s over ten
years it’s had multiple iterations so you know whoever wrote the white paper
whoever wrote the original code it’s it’s it’s not that important I mean I
know there’s a fascination about it but whoever those people are they’re human
they have faults and I think it’s best not to eulogize them I mean obviously
there’s the famous names people associate there’s the fake Toshi’s I
mean but it’s kind of really irrelevant now and I think focusing on that yeah
there would is there’s no point to it you know the people working on it now
that other you know rock stars or superstars and there you
know that it’s a it’s a far bigger system I mean you know I I think I heard
about Bitcoin in 2010 but the people I know that were actually involved in it
said there’s hardly any transactions so the system is much more complex now and
has much you know essentially much brighter people working on it that’s a
really good point so looking at it not is who is the inventor but the people
keep on working on the system is more important for you at least yeah because
I think it’s much more complex I mean when Bitcoin came out there was own
there’s no concept of a minor there was you basically had a node anyone that ran
a node was it a node R and a client was mining was a node there was no mining
pause if you see the complexity it has now with mining pause and dedicated
miners separate nodes it’s a totally different beast a much more complicated
beast that’s a really interesting angle and I would love to ask you because it
seems like this whole Bitcoin maximalist term and maybe some people portray you
as a Bitcoin maximalist and it really feels like almost like a religion
sometimes like a cults as in you know if you go through religion you have that
story that person that has created people who want to follow because their
values and principles are connected to that specific symbol do you feel why is
it that Bitcoin tends to have more of a cults than other is it the history is
the financial crisis what what is the triggering the people that are so into
it I mean yeah I’ve been called a max list I don’t think I am one but you know
in any open source software you know think of open source software that’s got
nothing to do with money it does become quite territorial and people always feel
they have a right to have a say in the way it’s being built even though they’re
not building it when you thrown money becomes ten times worse it’s people’s
livelihood but I don’t think Bitcoin maximum is necessarily healthy I mean
you know obviously we had 2017 where a lot of the ICO is will questionable but
there are some projects out there that are interesting no one can tell me that
Manero is not interesting I mean I personally am quite involved and a big
fan of deke red now do I think it’s going to overtake Bitcoin absolutely not
but there’s definitely some innovation there that’s superior to Bitcoin I think
what they’re doing around governance is pretty unique anyone who downloads deke
red and uses their client uses their ocation it’s got some special stuff
around it the way they’ve done kind of like hybrid proof of stake proof of
mining Pro you know consensus is pretty unique and I think Bitcoin needs a few
orts to keep it honest yeah there’s there’s a lot of innovation that’s going
to happen in the next few years that can’t be done in Bitcoin because bitcoin
is a you know is a living very important piece of infrastructure and that
innovation will probably happen elsewhere now yes if that innovation is
successful it probably will find its way back onto Bitcoin but we do needles
we can’t yeah we can’t have this Bitcoin religion it’s not healthy and I for one
are not appreciative of other people who you know do click bakes to kind of
insult other projects because there’s a lot of people in this industry that talk
but getting something working getting something live isn’t successful I mean
is it there’s a huge undertaking I mean I’m not the biggest fan of a theorem but
I respect the fact that they built something that works and it has a you
know a collection of people haven’t made a relative success out of it I think
that’s healthy I really like that same especially knowing that if the crypto
assets market is between a hundred and two hundred billion US dollars that’s a
drop in the ocean compared to a single company like Amazon or Facebook so why
compete and why not just stay together stronger well in competitions healthy
yeah but yes some I think some of the maximun gets a bit ugly and gets and
interestingly enough I think a lot of it is clickbait the people I know and I’m
not gonna mention names in but the Bitcoin core developers I know they read
I’d never heard them badmouth other projects they just get on with their own
stuff and I think you know tend to your own garden laughing that’s the way it
should be yeah let the market decide you
absolutely absolutely some people like to shop at one place
some people love drop by the other they can still survive right they don’t
necessarily you know and I think money is very tribal anyway and any tribe has
got a has got the freedom to choose its medium of exchange yeah beautifully
beautifully put it I love that statement in terms of innovation you’re just
talking about innovative solutions you’re working on side chains yes as far
as I understand could you please imagine my grandma Susie by the way ANOVA
grandma called Susie but imagine my grandma Susie walked into this room
how would you explain a side chain really in laymen terms so that everyone
out there can understand what it is and why we need it yes I mean again a side
chain is a I wouldn’t say controversial word but different people use it
differently so you have people like lock screen they built this liquid side chain
which is kind of like a collection of nodes that are running via multi-sig
their own network but it’s pegged to Bitcoin so big Bitcoin can peg you you
pick out a Bitcoin into the liquid network and pick out we don’t do that we
have our own version or a side chain which is yes similar but whereas we’re
not really doing the pegging we kind of a test a Bitcoin so we run our own side
chain we use bitcoins proof-of-work as a form of kind of security you know
sensitive resistance as well but you know it’s it’s essentially a chain
layered on top of Bitcoin or any other proof-of-work coin or potentially any
proof of state coin and it yeah shares a lot of semantics but it’s it’s layered
over on the top or on the side depending on the way you want it implemented and
there’s different use cases so some people have built side changes a layer
on top of Bitcoin so that you know you don’t have to worry about Bitcoin
transaction fees or block times and it’s a faster transfer mechanism a Bitcoin
you have people like what we’ve done we do a commerce block is where we build
kind of like a set back side change to represent like you know potentially an
equity or precious metal and we use bitcoins proof-of-work to secure it but
it’s it would be essentially a precious metal sites chain that’s a really yeah
that’s very very interesting so with this analogy work like imagine
blockchain was this Avenue or this this road and side chains are like extra
lanes you help traffic yeah the way you could think of it I mean you mentioned
you know where are we on Bitcoin transactions well we all know that the
blocks are kind of full so the way I like to say is the highways being built
now we’re gonna obviously I don’t think there’ll be major changes of Bitcoin
next few years but there’ll be little tweaks to make the highway more optimal
but side-chains things like lightning that’s like building the buses of public
transport because we need to come we need to fit more on there and you know
sigh change is one of the approaches lightning which is making a lot of noise
at the moment is another approach and there’ll be other approaches that you
know I I haven’t heard of or it hasn’t even been thought about yet that’s the
way to think of it that’s a great analogy so the bus is so
blockchain would be some sort of highway and side-chains will be the buses yeah I
guess lightnings probably like you know zapping people around like Star Trek
star but yeah yeah with that I’d say yeah we’re like a bus we wear bus for
other assets to sit on this a Bitcoin blockchain very interesting fascinating
so in terms of the Lightning Network I know just a few minutes ago we’re
talking about it together and you seem quite optimistic on the progress that
has been made could you tell us a little more about the Lightning Network and and
how you see Bitcoin yeah I mean I’m not an expert on lightning I mean I guess
when Sega what happened last year it was always thought that you know lightning
would come soon I’m quite surprised at how quickly the network grew a niche and
I think a lot to do that is there’s a lot of excitement and a lot of maybe
developers that probably didn’t want to do Bitcoin core development because you
know Bitcoin cause old C++ it’s it’s kind of hard to do anything right now
it’s there’s not much yeah that’s gonna be changed or it’s slow and I think bit
lightning has kind of put another layer on top of Bitcoin where developers can
come in and do something creative and that’s why you’ve seen quite a lot of
interest in apps that have been built but essentially lightning it’s a way of
caching transactions I mean I’m trying to talk about a highest level but the
way I see it is a cache on top of Bitcoin now you have to payment channels
which allow people to route messages across each other but there I’ve you
them as all kind of caches that makes sense that’s really interesting yeah
absolutely so as at a Bitcoin has about seven transactions per second yes how
far can we scale do you see and maybe the next year or in two years from now
what I mean Bitcoin you are gonna see I don’t think the block size will change I
think that’s because of political reasons but you will see more
transactions in the block so I think you’ll I think there’s more signatures
that going to come which will allow kind of suit signature aggregation and I
think that’s where Bitcoin will do there’ll be lots of probably unexcited
changes to the rest of the world but they’ll gradually pack more in and I
think it’ll be up to the second layers to get Bitcoin to scale to the levels
that we want to see with things like when people compare it to Visa and I
think lightning potentially sidechains and
again there’s probably things that haven’t even been foretold are gonna be
needed to get to that level but it’s lightnings still very much an
experimental project it’s still a lot got a long way to go and I think the UI
experience is gonna be tricky of lightning I mean anyone let’s use
Bitcoin for the online payment realize it’s not optimal if you get the fee
wrong it’s potentially you know you potentially miss a payment so there
still needs to be a lot of work on wallet design
I think lightning is actually potentially more complex because you
have to route payments and what happens if payments don’t get routed and I think
well I’d like to see a lot of work is actually just making simple simple
better UI so you know your granny Suzy can use and stuff works be done I would
love my granny Suzy to be able to use this definitely there’s there’s work on
terms of UX as well the user experience is very complicated so that as of today
Charles Hoskinson talked about how there’s the era of the protocol sub
watching protocols and now is the era of sidechains
like we’re talking about in terms of scalability from an investment angle do
you think that people out there should be interested in investing in projects
that are building side chain solutions well I think if we’ve learned anything
in the last 10 years there’s blockchains of show to be very resilient which is a
good thing mutability is essentially what you’re paying for with Bitcoin I
mean I think Benjamin Franklin said money is time I think nothing shows that
better than Bitcoin Bitcoin may be money but it’s also the best time machine
we’ve ever seen you know something that’s written in the blockchain in 2014
it’s there for life to attack Bitcoin and reverse that information is going to
cost billions of dollars so yeah we’ve seen that block chains are very
resilient what specifically the Bitcoin blockchain
but we’ve also seen they’re hard to scale there’s been a lot of scaling
debates of scaling wars and it’s been questionable if they can have a scale so
we need layer two you know we need layers on top and to wait to die look at
the blockchain it’s like a database I mean databases are good food you know
for for the semantics of constraining data but if you want a data base to work
for say an e-commerce site you have to essentially build a cache on top so now
we need to build these layers to get it to scale to levels we need to support
ecommerce to support day-to-day finance and I think that’s where now the
companies to invest in I don’t know I mean it’s a crapshoot you you have to I
tell you what circulation yeah and you have to invest in teams I mean yeah
obviously I’m not gonna pitch my company but I can tell you the challenges are
finding people you know who can do this work it’s not easy it’s not easy you
know it’s not and it’s it takes a long time absolutely this all the other day I
remember we had an event in Tokyo and we had the Hong FA from Neil and he kind of
talked about like right now it’s all about building the infrastructure and
he’s he had a really cool analogy saying like the deeper the hole the wider the
hole the higher the sky rise and and right now everyone’s building the
infrastructure so do you feel sometimes like due to the lack of news it’s become
a bit more boring recently or maybe not for you as someone in that space but
well it’s interesting because like I mean 2018 will be remembered for
probably as a bad year for crypto absolutely yeah but that is only talking
about the price yeah I made a few mistakes and crypto I never saw the ico
market coming I thought a feeling was dead with the Dow but I see Eris came
back and I didn’t see lightning moving the speed it would in 2018 and I think
from a technology point of view 2018 was pretty good I mean we saw lightning grew
we saw side chains appear you know liquid came out with block stream I mean
we did our own side chain but we haven’t you know kind of gone live yet but
there’s been a lot of innovation on technology that we hadn’t seen before
and I think sometimes the markets there’s two things I tend to focus on
price which we know and something that that’s probably even more boring
etf’s I can’t deal with another ETF Bitcoin not happening so I think there’s
nothing more boring than talking about Bitcoin ETFs but yeah I think 2018 from
a technology point of view is pretty pretty pretty good it’s been going well
red hash rates as well there are a lot of metrics showing that despite the drop
in price technologically were under some interesting things that were designed I
mean you know mining is very centralized in Bitcoin
there was some like interesting ideas to decentralize mining a Matt Correll wrote
the better hash protocol which I know a few people are looking at I think this I
said sidechains and lightning change open things up we also saw the demise of
bit Maine which was kind of seen as one of the companies that’s centralizing
mining so I think and even though the price went down there was a lot of
institutions that started to move into crypto I mean fidelity made some big
moves you saw things feel like ice in the back to exchanges they they weren’t
around in 2016 and that’s a really good point because fidelity are actually the
group that created the fixed protocol back in 92 if you remember well and a
company that created a protocol that standardized the way banks would
exchange or or have liquidity pools it’s pretty cool that’s such a traditional
company would get into this yeah they have a very mature approach like I do
know people at fidelity we have spoken to them they started mining a few years
back not to make money but just to understand it and that’s you know that’s
quite you know enlightening to see a company you know cuz we always we knock
the existing financial system which we have every right to do but there are
some people that are trying to learn this and do it proper and get their feet
wet that’s really cool that growth mindset
despite you know being there and creating the great technology for a
traditional markets still open to yeah I’m working a lot of banks you know they
have big budgets they do have a lot of good technologists a lot of the issues
because of human issues they’re not necessary because the technology they
employ so there are good guys they’re trying to do something useful and stuff
that’s a really interesting point so there’s one question why to ask you
based on something you said earlier and you were talking about databases and
obviously we have the centralized distributed decentralized databases and
I believe we had this conversation just an hour ago where we’re wondering how
many of the cryptocurrency projects truly need blockchain and I would love
to get your view on this project well some is very simple if you read the
first paragraph of the Satoshi’s white paper it says peer-to-peer cash system
and I always say if you want to use a blockchain are you doing something
peer-to-peer Kuki beer otherwise I mean blockchain is
a bad database there’s no querying facilities it’s not really designed for
large data sets it’s really about how you produced a box in a trustless way so
if I want to send you Bitcoin blockchain is great because it will you know it’s
trustless we don’t have to trust each other if we want to if I wanted to send
you a an asset-backed token peer-to-peer blockchain is great because we would
hopefully in our world we would child trusts that blockchain because it’s
backed by the company that owns the asset and the blockchain would provide
transparency it would allow me to download my own node make sure that I’m
sending my transactions make sure there’s no funky business going on it
provides that transparency but when people start talking about you know
supply chain which I love in block chains I don’t get that or when people
are building essentially closed systems of a blockchain there is no reason to
use it you should be using a database you’re our Sun Times CDs you know
securities platforms building blockchain securities how’s that better that or
different or makes any sense compared to a database security I don’t get that and
I think sometimes they’re just using the blockchain word to maybe boost sales or
get VC money coming in but doesn’t make sense to me because of that buzz right
yeah so if a company’s using a private blockchain a permission blockchain to
you at this point since because of the lack of scalability it doesn’t really
make sense well I mean in a way the way we implement so I change their
permission block chains but they’re public so you know who’s basically issue
creating the blocks and you know under what circumstance and anyone can
download a node and basically see what’s going on and you know because we use
Bitcoin to kind of preserve history we can make sure that blocks can’t be
reordered etc but if you’re just an internal system using blockchain for you
know your app it makes absolutely no sense
mmm what about block chains who don’t want to use open source do Jubilee like
every blockchain should be somehow connected to open source because of this
transparency kind of fundamental again if we if we think of a blockchain as a
peer-to-peer system if if me and you’re gonna trade with a Bitcoin or some
precious metal over we need to trust the software that’s running if it’s not
from source then God knows why put in there yeah absolutely absolutely because
there are many companies actually do that right so it’s kind of surprising I
think all free is not open-source I think I heard something I we always look
at ha free and I Piper legend try and understand why they’re not using
databases but awesome so there is one more topic that I’d love to cover with
you and to be honest I would love to go on for hours and hours if we had more
time definitely please come back in a future but we were talking about stos
and security tokens and I and the reason why I’m mentioning this is because I
know you’ve written you’ve actually produced some content yeah on this
particular topic and I would love to especially with your background in
traditional finance I’d love to hear your take on security tokens stos as
it’s kind of the hyped term these days if you don’t mind sharing a little bit
of what you’ve wrote about yeah I mean obviously there’s a liquidity in stos
and they’re not raising the money people would hoped because there’s no liquidity
but also for me I mean at the moment they’re very much handicapped by
existing regulation and if you look at a lot of these sto platforms they’re a
collection of databases that are using the word blockchain and once they create
these tokens which you know they need to have like an sto database a share
registry database at kyc database they then can only be traded on a regulated
exchange which has a database I don’t know how that’s anything better than the
existing financial system I don’t know why that’s an improvement over me not
using etrade to buy share now do I think stos could be useful in the future yes
but we need to if we’re going to use block chains we have to use them for
what they’re designed for like I I struggle to see a shared blockchain for
all securities I don’t think I blockchain could ever scale I believe if
you’re a company you know whatever your company’s cordless call it tea tea calm
perhaps they should have a blockchain called tea calm and they would be in
charge of basically making sure all transactions okay why seed appropriate
AML if they want to basically you know preserve state they could put that
against their favorite blockchain but essentially it would be to
facilitate peer-to-peer trades and you know can that happen in existing
regulation perhaps there’s nothing stopping me going to the local pub and
shelling shares in my company and I think that same attitude should be
looked you know building stos I think if if you look at me the early days of the
internet there was the b2b wars where many big companies came up with these
very complex b2b protocols none of them really ever scaled or worked and were
probably worse than the existing b2b protocols out there you know some people
like at Google Yahoo came up with very simple protocols basically called rest
where if I wanted to get a stock price I would just put URL question mark
stock equals blah and I’d get a stock price and that threw out all these
complicated b2b protocols and I think as I don’t think the regulation necessary
to change but as as people realize what a blockchain is and how to make it more
peer-to-peer and how you can fit into the existing regulation I think common
sense will may prevail but a moment I don’t think any of them are an
improvement of the existing financial system these regulation systems
especially on a global scale are extremely complex right in order to get
lawyers to work on smart contracts and everyone agree on a global sandbox it’s
quite a lot of work I think there’s a there’s a knowledge gap I think there’s
very few people who understand what a blockchain is and you know if you look
at a lot of these regulations they’re bit by lawyers and you have you know
your your blockchain consultants are kind of colluding with them and it’s
it’s not a blog tape for me it’s it’s basically if you were to take the
existing financial system payment system and replace data bases with block chains
you would not have Bitcoin Bitcoin works it was peer-to-peer and trustless I
think stos need to look more like that for them to work and I could go on about
it for a while but I mean it’s at the moment if they don’t really make sense
doesn’t really make sense and there’s some really good points it do you
believe someday we will have for example the equities market on the blockchain or
commodity on the block you mean do I tie it to look at if you look at it meant you go into the Yellow Pages
finding an address and it was a big building somewhere now what does IBM
mean to you now you go on a website you trust IBM comm white because as an ssl
certificate that you know says that IBM comm is IBM common anything written on
that page is trusted in law I think once we get to that level with potentially
assets whether they’re securities or pressures you know
commodities where I can find a blockchain I trust it whether using SSL
I mean we’ve built some protocols around that
that you know maybe another day will explain to you but we can trust that
that asset points to the underlying asset whether that’s the security or the
all the commodity then yeah I think we could get there but we have to have that
mindset that shift from what IBM means to what it means on the Internet and I
think once we get that we could potentially get there and that’s going
to take time and it’s not it bitcoin took time I mean I mean I’m a
technologist I didn’t get my head around Bitcoin straightaway when I first read
the white paper it was double dutch and you know when I first looked at it I
thought ten minute block times who’s going to wait at a coffee shop for 10
minutes and you know I thought was a lumpy yeah I thought it was very I
thought was just a pet project for a bit of fun but it took me a while to get my
head around it that was more about sound money and I think stos need that kind of
you know they need to get around what would be a peer-to-peer security what
would be a peer-to-peer token that represents a real world asset so the
secondary market that peer-to-peer secondary market for you is what matters
the most yes bringing this but if you look at
Bitcoin never no one built Bitcoin exchanges you had a peer-to-peer market
and then exchanges got built on top I think the what’s happening with stos
is people are building these regulated exchanges before the stos are even there
and I think market technology doesn’t work that way
yeah technology evolves you you can’t you know was at the Cathedral approach
you can’t design something in a Cathedral or the general approach of
designing it and then hoping that the market will take off you you build the
layers and it grows over time and that’s how the internet grew a lot I’d need the
protocols of the Internet were never designed they evolved and I think we
need to see that with tokens in talking about evolution so actually that so
leads to my final question for you obviously
you love Bitcoin well maybe not a maximalist but you you do appreciate the
work and you’ve been involved a very long time
in terms of reaching mass adoption for someone to use Bitcoin or blockchain
without really realizing that they’re using the blockchain just they
understand Bitcoin only what would we need to really go over that gap you know
that I think we just care that a consumer apps its consumers very hard I
mean you know I don’t want my mother using Bitcoin because she’s only gonna
phone me up and drive me nuts getting the fee right and you know it’s
not worth the hassle for me for my grandmother Suze no no you don’t want
her to call you know that needs to prove that and I accept that Bitcoin is very
hard to use for payment now as a store of value it’s fine we have good customer
if you want to use a hardware wallet if you want to keep it in Zappo that works
but for using it for day-to-day you know purchases on Amazon it it’s it’s it’s
tricky you know our friends that have I think I’ve mentioned you know got
friends involved with trip key they’re going through some of the testing yeah
that there’s challenges all right yeah and they’ve got a good team they’ll fix
them but you know we need more people like that getting now they’re going
about you know getting crypto to be used in kind of e-commerce and we that
they’re fixing a lot of the challenges and I think more people need to do that
fix their challenges we use in e-commerce and day-to-day payments I
think I think Bitcoin wallets probably won’t move that much but things like
lightning where you can do micro-trend payments I think the wallets if you’re
seeing something while it’s coming out lightning I think they’ll fix it that’s
where you would be able to buy your coffee yeah there’s a dream that we all
have I’m going to I think I’ll fix it because a lot of things are different by
demand like I heard the other day you know decentralized exchanges are a joke
well there was no need centralized exchanges were providing everything we
needed but now central all centralized
exchanges essentially want you to upload your passport give you your date of
birth tell you where your grandmother Suzie was born okay it’s the
surveillance day I’m pretty sure these centralized exchanges are gonna get a
lot better because people are not going to want to put so much information into
them so that is really interesting probably yeah and I’m seeing
decentralized exchanges pop up which are pretty impressive
yeah atomic swaps and life technology is allowing to
if you look at the decrypting they’re coming up with an interesting
decentralized exchange because now there’s a demand people do not want to
put in their whole life story into an exchange just to buy and sell Bitcoin
absolutely in control there yeah well through their assets right it’s an
important part it’s a security risk every once in a while you hear about a
data breach you know personal details are stolen people don’t want that
I don’t yeah definitely so it’s kind of like as the next step for a really mass
adoption to join this community in this new asset class who would be for to have
some sort of payment solution yeah where people could spend it on a day-to-day
basis and that for you would be the check mark yes we need more consumer
apps I mean I think Bitcoin has worked well as sound money I think there’s no
denying that but we need yeah we need more usage and I think it’s gonna happen
it just takes a while I don’t remember when the Bitcoin over when that when the
inter when the internet became used I remember in 2002 people telling me no
one’s gonna buy any think of and I remember now at some point no one
ever buys anything not on and you know I don’t think there’s not gonna
be an announcement it’s just at some point you’re gonna look weird for not
using crypto yeah without a doubt this has been a fascinating talk Nicolas I
really really loved it I would love you to actually tell us a little more about
commerce block before we end the show because I think it’s a really
interesting project and many people should know more about it sure so yeah
we’re based in London we’ve been around since 2016 CTOs and Tom server Liam he
he came from n chain so if you ever want to come and ask questions about you know
N chain what they’re doing Satoshi see he’s got a lot of stories to tell
we all say we’re open source everything we do is on our github repo we do
provide services to secure to build so I change to secure them but it’s optional
and we’re doing some interesting stuff in the commodity space
well back yeah we’re back by global advisors who are old you know kind of
were historically commodities was a commodities hedge fund so now we’re
doing things with them on the commodities to base to get that one on
side-chains fantastic and where can we follow you by the way thomas plot car
yeah I tweet sometimes about my view of the world on Twitter and
but we’ve quite active we try to it’s definitely a really interesting view and
I literally I had a blast talking to tonight thank you so much for educating
the community out there your crypto community and blockchain buddies across
the globe tonight we had Nicholas Gregory thank you so much for coming and
hopefully see you soon you you